Posts by Cold Steel

48

God of the Old Testament

by unsure in

to those on these forums who are christian and or to those who believe in the god of the old testament; how does one overcome many of the questionable actions god took or allowed to happen in the old testament?.

many if not most of us have heard of criticisms of the god of the old testament.

you can find these criticisms on many websites.. how do you explain to an honest hearted person why god acted the way they did?.

Cold Steel

Unsure » Atheists are very intelligent and base their viewpoints on facts rather than faith and confirmation bias.

I know a lot of atheists that are a lot smarter than me, that's fer sure. My point is that they aren't smarter than God (if He exists). The points people are making is, why is God soooooooo mean (if He exists)? No, I take it back...they don't ask, they declare it, as if it's a fact. God murders people whose only offense is that they occupy land that He gave the Israelites. Therefore, God's a meanie. A degenerate desert god who has a zero tolerance policy for sin.

That's where it's an issue for me, so therefore my statement that God views them as "foolish" (his word). No matter how sharp you are...how smart...how educated, if you don't have the same facts, or details, and if you don't have the same standards of morality, then you can't stand in judgment of God. After all, He has all the facts (if He exists) and He knows what their deeds were and what was in their hearts.

Atheism wasn't an issue in the days of Moses. The people had seen Moses come down from the mount with a face like amber. They'd seen the parting of the Red Sea and the ten plagues in Egypt. The issue was God's judgments. And today, atheists (smart but ignorant) sit in judgment of God, defending peoples and practices they know nothing of. In pre-flood times we don't know a thing about the peoples, cultures, religions or practices. We know something of the religions of the Canaanites and of the ancient Carthaginians, and they were despicable peoples who burned their children alive and sold their daughters into ritual prostitution.

No matter how smart a person is, the wisdom of men, even the smartest one, is foolishness to God. That's why if God exists, the issue is moot. And if He doesn't exist, I suppose it's also moot. What's not is that we're far from knowing everything.

48

God of the Old Testament

by unsure in

to those on these forums who are christian and or to those who believe in the god of the old testament; how does one overcome many of the questionable actions god took or allowed to happen in the old testament?.

many if not most of us have heard of criticisms of the god of the old testament.

you can find these criticisms on many websites.. how do you explain to an honest hearted person why god acted the way they did?.

Cold Steel

Unsure » A few of us have given examples of questionable actions in the Old Testament. To those who take the Old Testament literally, why did God make those decisions?

There are only three viable possibilities here.

The first is that man created God, and none of the so-called Old Testament is what it claims to be. Two, God does exist and it's pointless to question Him because He knows the hearts and thoughts of all men. He is the ultimate in truth, love, mercy and justice and He understand the situation far better than we ever could. "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are my ways your ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

The third possibility, of course, is that God exists, but He's not as SMART or as FAIR or as JUST as He has declared Himself to be through His prophets in the scriptures. Let's also recall that God ended no one's existence when He had people killed. Jesus, during his death, is recorded by Peter to have preached the gospel to the unrighteous who died during the Flood (1 Peter 3:18-20). So, really, who did He kill. As one theologian put it, these people didn't cease to exist but were temporarily moved to a penalty box. Atheists view death as the end of existence. God, on the other hand, views atheists as children who reach outrageous and exceedingly foolish conclusions based on inadequate understandings of all facets having to do with any given situation.

48

God of the Old Testament

by unsure in

to those on these forums who are christian and or to those who believe in the god of the old testament; how does one overcome many of the questionable actions god took or allowed to happen in the old testament?.

many if not most of us have heard of criticisms of the god of the old testament.

you can find these criticisms on many websites.. how do you explain to an honest hearted person why god acted the way they did?.

Cold Steel

David_Jay » I'm not here to make any Jews out of anyone or to recommend religion itself to anyone. Consult MyJewishLearning.com if you want to know more about Judaism.

But Judaism isn't one cohesive movement. Some Jews deeply believe their religion, while others view the stories of their past as fairy tales and little more. As with any religion, some will take the writings literally, others will view them as valuable but corrupted, and still others will put them on onion skin pages and protect them with fine leather bindings and scatter them with notations.

Judaism is a revealed religion. It's also a culture, a way of life, a collection of traditions. It doesn't matter whether Abraham and Moses were real, but each laid a foundation that make Jews what they are today. I don't think I'll ever understand your concept of God. I think of Him as a perfect being in our physical image, all knowing, all powerful. In Christianity, Jesus is in the "express image" of the Father. Adam was in the image of God, and Seth was in the image of Adam. And though God is all powerful, one wonders why it took him six-plus days to create the earth when he could have just spoken it into existence with a word?

I'm also not entirely sure how many Jews look at the supplemental prophets like Elijah and that prophet's return. In that culture, why does Elijah need to return?

You were once a Jehovah's Witness and left it, and have since studied Judaism and reside in Israel. It's obvious that to you God is real. At the same time, your understanding of God defies understanding (at least on my level). When the Christian Patristic scholars wrote of God as being everywhere and nowhere, infinitely large and yet incomprehensibly small: completely beyond human understanding. And yet after creating us, "He" offers us nothing except His notice.

66

How Knowledge is Dissipated in Talks

by Cold Steel in

londo111 » each congregation has a “talk coordinator”.

talk coordinators will coordinate with other talk coordinators in order to find speakers to give the public talk on sunday.

typically, they come from the general area: the circuit or a nearby circuit.

Cold Steel

I recommend reading all these threads in context. Decide for yourself if I've been out of line considering the topics. David, you seem to put a great deal of stock in being an Israeli Jew (rather than an American Jew). I respect that because your background and education is so defined, but what's the difference in your touting your religious background and me mine?

The topic you use against me was "Do Religious People Fear Their Religion May Be Wrong?" and I saw nothing saying "except Mormons." I thought this was a forum for the exchange of religious views and thought. I have nothing against your constantly reminding people you're a Jew...in fact, it's appropriate and affords us an appreciation of your background. But you seem to have something personal against Latter-day Saints, and it seems to stem back to the baptism thing (which I have no control over). When people ask me about the Book of Mormon or make lame comments about there being zero evidence for it, of course I'm going to defend it. Rather than being some mindless cult, I consider Mormonism to be as significant a religious movement as Islam.

Lately I've been studying the Seventh Day Adventists and Ellen G. White. I've read her revelations and visions and have been listening to their YouTube videos. And I've compared them to Joseph Smith's writings, and in my view there's no contest. But it's one thing to read these things, and quite another to declare them "laughable" without reading them. People are entitled to their opinions, though.

48

God of the Old Testament

by unsure in

to those on these forums who are christian and or to those who believe in the god of the old testament; how does one overcome many of the questionable actions god took or allowed to happen in the old testament?.

many if not most of us have heard of criticisms of the god of the old testament.

you can find these criticisms on many websites.. how do you explain to an honest hearted person why god acted the way they did?.

Cold Steel

Saved_JW » God is the only eternal uncreated being in the universe.

This is the contention of many evangelicals, but how do we know this? In the book of Genesis, we find Gods (Eloheim) speaking to each other. "Let US create man in OUR image, after OUR likeness" and "man has become as one of US." When we use the generic term man, we don't mean just one man: it's inclusive of all men and women.

If Jesus is God (Jehovah), the Son of the Father, and if the Holy Spirit also is God, we have at least three Eloheim as the presiding council of this earth. The scriptures tell us that God is ONE, but the New Testament is fairly clear that this oneness is not literal. Jesus prayed to the Father concerning the Twelve, "...that they may be one, even as we are one." The oneness of the Twelve is directly correlated with the oneness of God. This is one reason that Christianity is criticized by both the Jews and the Muslims. One wonders, for example, that if Jesus was, and is, God, who waa hearing and answering prayers during Jesus' mortality, when he was a child, a man? And who heard Jesus' prayers when he prayed to the Father? The oneness in Christianity was a oneness of purpose, not a literal oneness as some of the Patristic fathers tried desperately to argue. They want the Trinity to be both literal and figurative.

It just doesn't fit.

48

God of the Old Testament

by unsure in

to those on these forums who are christian and or to those who believe in the god of the old testament; how does one overcome many of the questionable actions god took or allowed to happen in the old testament?.

many if not most of us have heard of criticisms of the god of the old testament.

you can find these criticisms on many websites.. how do you explain to an honest hearted person why god acted the way they did?.

Cold Steel

David_Jay » God is not merely intelligence either. Our God is far greater than just that. Since Abraham was the one who among his contemporaries who embraced this fact, God chose his descendents to carry on this understanding. This concept is what Jewish theology calls "monotheism": no God but one, no god but God.

Okay...but in all the books of Moses and in all the books of the prophets, the word "GOD" is used. If you believe the Jews borrowed the god language from their Mesopotamian neighbors, that may be true, but how do you -- David Jay -- know that this is how Abraham and Moses comprehended Him? Abraham and Lot both knew many of the heathen and Moses was raised an Egyptian. Moses beholds the burning bush and we're left to wonder what this Entity was and why it was drawn towards Israel?

Many of the Patristic-era fathers left descriptions of this Entity (called "God" for lack of a better term) very similar to how you're describing Him. Such a Being can't really be in the same image as man, nor even really be referred to as a "He" properly since He has no peers nor a mate. In short, He is self-existent and has an intelligence that transcends the Universe. If so, can we be sure He can even be described as El or Eloheim?

48

God of the Old Testament

by unsure in

to those on these forums who are christian and or to those who believe in the god of the old testament; how does one overcome many of the questionable actions god took or allowed to happen in the old testament?.

many if not most of us have heard of criticisms of the god of the old testament.

you can find these criticisms on many websites.. how do you explain to an honest hearted person why god acted the way they did?.

Cold Steel

David_Jay » Judaism is not a religion of belief or faith. It is one of action, where people cooperate with God to bring practical healing and help into the world. Technically speaking, Jews don't "believe" in God. None of us have this "belief." But that doesn't mean that Jews don't accept God as real.

So when Moses communes with YHWH on the mountain, and when he receives his commission from the voice from the burning bush, what was he dealing with, if anything? If YHWH is real, but not "God," what is He? Is He intelligence? Or is He the sum of stories created around countless fires on dark desert night?

But in what sense is God real? If He is an intelligence and is not a GOD, what is He and why did He take an interest in the Jews?

We are not focused on an afterlife as we have the miracles of a present life. Every breath we have now is a gift. Every moment of life is a miracle. Every second is this life is a second experiencing God who Jews accept as real as the world they live in. We have no need for belief or faith as we are already with God now.

This is fine if you enjoy life and are living it fully. But not everyone views life as a blessing. Some view it as a curse. Some live every day in pain, others battle Alzheimers and see their minds slipping irretrievably away. To them, life is no miracle or blessing. Of what use is God if He doesn't speak? And what good is living the law if it leads nowhere but old age and death?

In other words, many atheists would contend that YHWH is, and has never been, real in any sense of the word. A covenant requires two parties, no? Judaism requires God to be complete.

48

God of the Old Testament

by unsure in

to those on these forums who are christian and or to those who believe in the god of the old testament; how does one overcome many of the questionable actions god took or allowed to happen in the old testament?.

many if not most of us have heard of criticisms of the god of the old testament.

you can find these criticisms on many websites.. how do you explain to an honest hearted person why god acted the way they did?.

Cold Steel

How do you explain to an honest hearted person why God acted the way they did?
The Old Testament and New Testament are almost polar opposites.

What particular way did God act that you find questionable or objectionable? Try to be specific because the Bible is full of stories. Also, in which ways are the Old and New Testaments "polar opposites"?

David_Jay » Jews find atheism a very good and intellectual life choice. Even many practicing Jews are atheist.

Yes, and I've never understood it. I had a Jewish friend who believed the entire story of Moses was a collection of fairy tales, yet he drove sixty-five miles to go to a kosher restaurant on travel. He lived it at home, too. And also, the law that Moses received and the works of other Jewish scholars and theologians are some of the most moral and sensible writings ever written. Compared with the surrounding cultures and religious beliefs, Jewish law stood head and shoulders above them. The Greeks can boast of their great philosophers (and I'm a huge fan of the Greeks), but they had nothing on scholars like Rabbi Moses ben Maimon (Maimonides). His works were so thorough and garnered such great respect that there's a saying which goes, "From Moses to Moses, there's no one like Moses!"

The judicial code, the treatment of animals and the wisdom and compassion of the law belies the idea that it was just the manmade ramblings of shepherds and Bedouins. And though atheism may be "a very good and intellectual life choice" may be true for some, the debate on that will continue to rage. I would be more inclined to agnosticism that the absolutism of atheism. To say, I don't know makes more sense to me if someone were to just drop me on this planet and have me choose a belief system.

Jews can be as diverse as anyone else, but I never understood why my friend would live kosher and eat kosher if he was an atheist. Yet he did. He said it was a cultural thing.

What good is any religion if it doesn't address the afterlife or the judgment of man?

I believe there's great wisdom in the so-called Old Testament.

66

How Knowledge is Dissipated in Talks

by Cold Steel in

londo111 » each congregation has a “talk coordinator”.

talk coordinators will coordinate with other talk coordinators in order to find speakers to give the public talk on sunday.

typically, they come from the general area: the circuit or a nearby circuit.

Cold Steel

I have not recommended that you or anyone else read the Book of Mormon, nor have I done the things you accuse me of. It's blatantly unfair to come here with a chip on your shoulder, to a discussion board, then assert that anything contrary to your beliefs is an affront to not only you, but all Jews.

When have I ever cited any LDS text or Scripture except to clarify questions or comments addressed to me requiring clarification. You act as though Christians are your enemy and we are not. If you raise the issue of baptism for the dead, how can I answer or clarify our position without citing our scripture or writings? Do you think we mean to insult your relatives, David? Or you? Are you so narrow minded of the beliefs of others that you can't hear or try to understand them? Who's being arrogant?

Like it or not, I have put forth our beliefs. Yes, you may think Joseph Smith and Jesus made up these bizarre religions and that we've got it all wrong, but we respectfully disagree. Moses had his revelations in the deserts of the Sinai. Jesus had his in Jerusalem, and Joseph Smith in New York. But do you think WE made up our beliefs, and said, hey, let's go yank the chains of the Israeli Jews? We do many thousands of baptisms, and while you may find it reprehensible that we baptize anyone's relatives, that's just not the way we see it.

If you don't want me to defend my beliefs, don't make them an issue. I'm not here to discuss Mormonism...we have our own sites for that and you can go there and pound on us if you like.

I suggest you go back and reread this thread to find out how this whole thing developed before making your accusations. We LDS mean no offense to anyone, and we don't do what we do out of spite or malice. To take it as such is a mistake on your part.

15

This really does not end well for God.

by pleaseresearch in

to say this whole creation thing has been or will be a success at the end is absurd.

not only did one third of the angels jump ship to satans side.

but adam and eve screwed up so quickly.

Cold Steel

EverApostate » Why should there be a war in heaven, as the Bible says? War is possible only with materialistic and tangible living things. God and his angelic myriads are spirit creatures and how do you think a war is practical in this respect. Can't god inactivate the rebelling angels in a split second, stripping them off their power.

Most likely it was a war of words, not done with swords. God respects our free agency. As Father Kallistos Ware notes: "The source of evil lies thus in the free will of spiritual beings endowed with moral choice, who use that power of choice incorrectly." (The Orthodox Way, p. 75)

Before the creation of the world, one third of the hosts of heaven rebelled. Their defeat was certain, but the Adversary was willing to sacrifice his all to make a point. We don't know what the debate was over or what would have happened if Satan had won the majority; we just know he was doomed to defeat.

Ware also noted: "There has been a double fall; first of all the angels, and then of man." But what if we were those angels? What if those born into mortality were the two-thirds who were loyal, while the one-third who were rebellious were cast down to Earth to lead us astray?

"Prior to man's creation," Ware notes, "there had already occurred a parting of the ways within the noetic realm: some of the angels remained steadfast in obedience to God, others rejected him. Concerning this 'war in heaven,' (Rev. 12:7) we have only cryptic references in Scripture; we are not told in detail what happened, still less do we know what God has for a possible reconciliation within the noetic realm...." He even wonders if God will ever reconcile with Lucifer and his angels.

That I doubt.

The point is, we don't know enough to gauge the situation. We can only guess. The details must remain until later. After the resurrection, there will be no more war or dissension.

David Jay » The so-called Fall of Man, the War in Heaven, even "Satan the Devil" are all Christian inventions that, for lack of a better term, screws up the meaning behind the Jewish Scriptures.

Or they could be the results of further revelation. I understand why you would be skeptical, but in the end you may see it differently. Only time will tell. Christian and Jewish scholars have been battling for eons over this and the verdict is not in.

Your view that Jesus is God also remains to be seen. If we Christians are wrong, we're wrong. If you're wrong, then I suspect you would be equally willing to change. Jesus certainly enraged the Jews of his time with his claims of a divine nature.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Matthew 23:37

Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

John 10:31-35